Multiple Harmony Remotes - updated

My goal was to add a Logitech Harmony Ultimate remote to my Logitech Harmony Ultimate All in One remote with hub. Looked simple, since the remote / hub combo on sale was almost the same price as either alone I got the bundle and figured I'd use the second hub in the bed room to control the TV and window AC unit in there. As an added bonus that would give me backups should the main hub or remote go out. From my basic research this all seemed doable. As it turns out:
You can add multiple remotes to a hub BUT only one can be of the touch screen type like the Ultimate or Elite. This chart tries to explain that but I did not get it the first time through. If you try and add a second touchscreen remote it just replaces the first one though both show in the app and no error is given. (In fact even after I moved the second Ultimate remote back to the second hub it still showed in the desktop app as a third remote till I removed it.) What you need is a special remote, the Logitech Harmony Smart Control Add-On Companion Programmable Remote for Harmony Ultimate Hub. This pretty much works. Since there is no screen and only 3 activity buttons you are limited to 6 activities (short and long press of each button) and just basic controls. At about this point it hit me that the hubs do most of their controlling via WiFi instead of IR so I set up the second hub with the remote it came with and cloned the devices and activities from the first set to it I might be good. Unfortunately controlling devices from 2 hubs can cause state confusion in the hub like I've seen when using the original remotes with the Harmony. Plus I should note here my Onkyo receiver, Roku and Fire TV can be controlled by either hub but my TiVos, Blu-Ray players and HDMI switch can not.

Mapping on Companion remote is not quite right either for my Roamio OTA. For example in TiVo control mode, the MENU button on the Companion remote does not map to the TiVo button like it does on the touchscreen. In fact it, EXIT and DVR are not mapped at all. I mapped MENU to TiVo to match the touchscreen and Exit to Advance since Advance is only on the touchscreen on the Ultimate remote.
[update oddly when I added old Roamio Pro the MENU button was mapped to TiVo on both remotes]

To do this mapping it needs to be done from the phone app.
Select you hub
Select the MENU button in the upper left corner.
Navigate to HARMONY SETUP > ADD/EDIT DEVICES & ACTIVITIES.
Select the Activity you want to customize
Select Customize remote
Select the remote you want to customize.
On the picture select the button you want to remap
Select the device you want it to map to and then the command on the device (you have choice here of mapping short or long press)
Press > at top of page to save (will say syncing)
you can repeat to map other press here if you wish
Press > at top of page to continue which gets you back to button selection
If done mapping select > (which seems to sync again) takes you back to remote select
If done select < to get back to activity select
Select < or > to get back to settings
Press X in upper right corner and it will sync one last time.

Another issue was I have 3 security camera consoles and 3 other PCs I like to be able to swap to via my remotes that are on a HDMI switch leading into the receiver. I was able to setup activities for each. Adding to the TiVo, DVD, Roku and Fire TV though that makes 10 activities which is no problem on the touchscreen remotes but the Companion only lets you map 6. So I though why not use the above to make the 6 PCs 1 activity and map the number buttons to control the switch. This seems to work fine.

One last note. My HDMI switch is a Monoprice 8X1 Enhanced Powered HDMI Switcher w/ Remote and is great. I've had it installed for 4 years now without an issue. For some reason the Harmony hub keeps turning it off even though it is set to never be turned off. I finally went in and remapped the power toggle command to the OSD command on the original remote which actually does nothing with this model.

One other note. The day after I got all the above nice and sorted lightning took out my Onkyo. So I did a patch around till I can get the Onkyo fixed. I thought I'd just stick 8 of the 10 devices on the switch but I was then depressed to find the phone app did not seem to let me do this. Fortunately I remembered seeing you could select more than 3 devices for activity in the desktop app and that indeed did work. I keep finding other bits you can only do in either the phone app or the desktop app. So before giving up you should always try both.

Update: 9/1/2019

Note you should also look at this post about the firmware changes and how to get it working again with Homeseer.

Also if you are looking for a remote to carry about you might want to look at https://www.amazon.com/URC-RFS200-PowerPak-MasterControl-PowerBlaster/dp/B000FL9E6U You will most likely need to manually teach it all the IR commands, it does not do macros, Only does 10 devices and only does IR but you can hang as many remotes as you wish off the hub so you can have one in every room and it has a much longer range then the Harmonies. There is a newer model that is supposed to have more range and controls 18 devices but I have not tried it.

Hue lighting vs Z-Wave - you probably want both

Common applications

I was just talking to a guy about which is a better fit. He said wall switches because most of the lights in his house a single switch controls all the ceiling lights in a room. Could be as many as 6 bulbs on switch so he is saying wall switches are cheaper. Wiring wise, my home is just the opposite. So is my shop though my barn is wired like he described. My barn is wired like a office with sectional fluorescent lighting because you do not want to step on something sleeping in a shadow. Other than the barn and some outdoor lights almost none of the lights are multiple bulbs. Almost every one is controlled by multiple switches. My house and shop are both very open plan with vaulted ceilings and 2 to 3 doors on almost every room. My living room for example has 4 ceiling lights and a fan light combo. Only 2 of those ceiling lights are on the same circuit and all of them are wired to 2 to 3 switches so you can control them from related entrances. Any home designed to be energy efficient would be done similar since you do not want to be turning on all the lights when you just need one and you do not want to have to cross a dark room to turn on a light. But even if your room is wired with 6 bulbs on a single switch, being able to control that group lights individually or as group like adding Hue bulbs would do would be seem to be an added feature over the wall switch as well.

Cost

First if you are looking at smart lighting I'd kind of assume you have, or will get, some sort of home automation hub. Not long ago I replaced several hubs, including a SmartThings, awhile back with one huge Homeseer server that oversees all 3 buildings. So the real question is never a Hue vs a Z-Wave hub. Hue is an add on not a central controller any more than Nest or Echo is. You can sort of do some limited stuff but again if you are reading this you have probably already out grown those limitations. Personally I have most my controlled lights linked with motion detectors so the lights come on when I enter and off after 10 minutes of no detected motion. I can also control them using Echo Dots around the house and a few are also linked to local z-wave and Hue remotes. Another advantage of Hue is they can be controlled by multiple controllers since it is in effect a WiFi enabled device when the Hue hub is used. Note the SmartThings hubs can talk to the Hue lights directly but people seem to have less issues using the hub instead.

So bottom line, the only bits that differ between using Hues or not are the Hue stuff and the wall switches. If you have even 1 Hue light you are probably going to have the Hue hub so it is really a non factor after the first bulb but lets looks at your example of a first time Hue install 2 bulbs on 1 switch:

• A 453761 Hue Lux 60W Equivalent A19 LED Personal Wireless Lighting Starter Kit sets you back $40 and that is really all you need to turn them off and on via phone, Echo ect. You just leave the switches on. You can turn them on locally by flipping the switch off and back on. Now this brings up what I see as the only real downsides to Hue.  1) if you turn them off at the switch they are off and 2) they all come on if the power goes out and back on. Though a flash outage or brown out does not seem to flip them on. 

• if you want local dimming or to be able to turn them off locally add a 455394 Hue Wireless Dimmer Kit, 1 Dimmer and 1 Hue White Bulb at $35 yes but note what does yield you an extra bulb to use else where too. So you really need to compare that to 2 wall switches which would be $5 more. Plus the Z-wave dimmer only will work with certain bulbs. If you want dimmable you really out to go with Hue.
• Lastly if you have family that forgets and flips switches off add a Mitzvah Family 1007 Magnetic Switch and Outlet Cover for Toggle Switches, 6 Pieces at $20 that works out to $3.33 EACH
• Now after you have the hub I found 3 packs of 455295 Hue White A19 LED Bulbs for as little as $22. Looks like on Amazon right now the best prices are on 2 packs for $18 but also watch for 3 packs. Always good to grab extras when they are cheap.
• Or you could get a Hue bulb with remote + the switch cover $38.

Note assumes you have usable bulbs for the switches already. If not you need to factor in at least $5 a bulb for the wall switches as well and their might be issues with dimming them.

Also some other bulbs work with Hue. For instance I have a GE Link Smart LED Light Bulb, PAR38 Floodlight (3000K), 90-Watt Equivalent that seems to work find with Hue though its short neck and wide face limit the fixtures it will work in. I got it for just $14 though on sale.

Now you could get something like the GoControl Z-Wave Dimmable LED Light Bulb, LB60Z-1 for $17.50 but then you have all the same issues as the Hue bulbs and none of the advantages. Plus each bulb is twice as much.

If you start talking 3 way you are looking at more like $60 per circuit going with wall switches. $80 for a 4 way ect. Plus I ran into issues with a 3 way setup for example where the only bulb that would work was an incandescent because it needed a trickle current through the bulb like the old X10 stuff did.  

All the above said I still like wall switches for specialty lighting like track lighting or even flood lights as even the white Hue floods are still on the pricey side at $22+ each Same with their 468926 Hue White Ambiance E12 Candelabra 6 Watt Connected LED Bulb. In both cases the applications generally call for 2 to 4 bulbs and in the case of floods I want something brighter than 60 watt equivalent. Not to mention they are not rated for outdoor use.

Research update: what about Ikea's TRADFRI lighting? 

It does look like it might be an affordable alternative to Hue once it is more supported given the prices I hear people are finding. Right now comparing the Ikea site prices to Amazon's Hue prices Hue is slightly cheaper. Alexa, HomeKit and Google Home support is supposed to be coming soon.If you are hardcore DIY there is a SmartThings hack out there to get it to work. And Homeseer looks to have a plug-in in the works. So it might be a question of waiting or taking a risk that this will work for you some day but it is not ready for the average consumer yet. Note Ikea does not have an outdoor option yet but they do have a track lighting one. Though again at $20 / bulb that can get pricey real quick. Their candelabra option LED bulb E12 400 lumen is a cheaper than Hue $15.